Tidbits of Truth - 7

[Gary Cendroski]

Hey all you wonderful people!I've been told you shouldn't discuss religion or politics in polite society. But hey, this is the Way Corps site!When it comes to being subject to "the higher powers" of Romans 13, in the time of the Apostle Paul, it was the Roman government. I'll forgo spending time arguing that it wasn't church leadership. A study of the secular and governmental terms used in that chapter will more than convince anyone who really wants to know. And Paul wasn't telling anyone to kiss the hind parts of the Emperor there. As he said in not so many words in that passage, one with a guilty "conscience" has a hard time being a witness and ambassador as a believer since our works speak louder than our words. You can't run around breaking every law on the books relating to common sense and decency and expect to be taken seriously when you tell people about how God changed your life from darkness to light!I'd rather focus on who "the higher powers" are in the USA. Is it the civil government, the president, the Federal Reserve, or the United Nations?The preamble to the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, THE founding documents of our nation, give us the answer."We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."According to the preamble, we, the people, ordain and establish the Constitution, thereby delegating authority, or powers, to the government. One cannot legally authorize or empower another to do anything unless one is a higher authority or power than another."We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...."According to the Declaration, governments, including ours, derive their powers from the consent of the governed. One cannot give consent to empower another unless one is a higher authority or power than another.So "the higher powers," when it comes to the USA, is "we, the people"! I believe Abraham Lincoln called it "government of the people, by the people, and for the people." We, as Americans, truly have a unique situation in the history of mankind.And if you contend that the Founding Fathers were in the wrong (as some Christians do) because they usurped "the higher powers" of the throne in England to establish this country, then every government before that must have done the same thing in succession throughout time or there would be only one governmental system on earth. If you follow that out, we have to go all the way back to the first king and original government after the flood, Nimrod's kingdom (Genesis 10:8-10), and subject ourselves to that standard. He led his subjects to reach up to the "heavens" and become the first humans to invite demonic possession to gain knowlege, power, and influence from the evil spirit realm. With that government and one world mentality, the Messiah would never have been born. Didn't God Himself overthrow it? And what about all the nations Israel destroyed at God's command when they moved into the Promised Land? I guess not every government that establishes itself is okay with Him, and some deserve to be judged and replaced.So what do we do with this knowledge? Realize we need not be subject to the Devil's men who run the world and attempt to run our country (II Corinthians 4:4 & Ephesians 4:14) in order to fulfill the Romans 13 directive. Live lives pleasing to God and a blessing to men (Luke 2:52). John Adams wrote that our Constitution was only fit for a moral and religious people anyway. Don't be paralyzed by the roar of the Lion (I Peter 5:8 & 9) as he tries to usurp our authority. Occupy until Christ comes (Luke 19:13) by standing our ground regarding who we are according to God's word and the law of our land - retreat is not an option. And, if you don't want to worry yourself sick about our country going down the drain, pray (I Timothy 2:1-4), act (Matthew 5:16), and resolve that our first allegiance is to the King of Kings and his everlasting Kingdom (I Timothy 6:12-15).If our government officials, elected or appointed, from president to dog catcher, had respect to "the higher powers," they would be representing us ("we, the people") instead of those who paid and pulled strings to get them in office and those who will reward them for doing their bidding once they leave office. While we follow the biblical command to honor them because of their position, they would follow their oaths of office and honor us as those they serve because of our position!As I speak of figureheads and puppets, let's not forget who the supreme mutinous captain and puppet-master is in the spiritual realm, and fight the good fight of faith with the spiritual weapons of warfare, realizing that the biblical prophecies will be fulfilled, and that it will take Christ's return to ultimately throw the bums out.While the civil authority in our country absolutely plays a vital role in a peaceful, orderly and protected society, we should see those involved in government as fellow citizens working by the side of those they serve, and not use the Bible to put them on a pedestal that our Founders never intended and God does not require. Remember, God didn't even want Israel to have a king. If I may paraphrase George Washington: "Government is not compassion, and it is not reason. Government is force. And like fire, it can be a useful servant, or a fearful master." I would spare any believer who deems himself or herself an American patriot, from embracing that fire into their bossom as their "higher power."

[Robert Gause]

This whole section is pretty simple when you realize that it was abused in the past and see that it is talking about those operating charismata within the church. The problem was in the leadership thinking and teaching that it was them, those charged with the responsability of "ruling" in the Body. The truth of the Word is that those who "rule" or "presides" which is a much better word for it , are to be diligent to make sure that "every believer ( including the " ruler " ) is to be quietly subdued to lovingly reverent of the higher powers placed in the Church by GOD. In other words the one who presides is to facilitate the operation of the charismata in the Church. Unfortunately , because of pride , alot of these "rulers" saw this charismata as a threat to their posistion and worked very hard ( you might say diligently ) to stop the very thing they were to insure!! interesting isn't it? At any rate , I feel your pain Emil , and I agree . It's a real shame

[Wolfgang Schneider]

Hi John & Janet,
just a short correction .... you mention Rom 13:7 above, but actually you meant Heb 13:7 .... :-)

As for the proper understanding of Rom 13:1ff, I do think that it is important to recognize the context, and in particular the historical context of the time of writing of the epistle and to whom it is addressed. It seems that many folks read the Scriptures (in particular the NT epistles) as if they were written yesterday and addressed to us living today ... When recognizing the historical context of Paul's writing, I would come to the conclusion that one can't quite apply the passage as is often done to either modern day civil governments or church clergy

Cheers,
Wolfgang

[John and Janet Ruiz]

Weeeeeeeell...appreciate your thoughts Gary. I think you've got some interesting points there, but I don't see Romans 13 dealing with civil authorities, solely. I think the "higher powers", the "authority that is superior" or "the higher ranking powers" and the whole of the message of Romans 13 could be applied in many contexts, but the specific context appears to clearly put some parameters on what it's talking about - Romans 13:7 specifically - "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

Now I know you didn't want to get into that part of the topic here, but I wanted to cite that verse as it would preclude applying it to those who don't speak the Word of God, who have no faith and who's conduct I wouldn't want to copy. I serrrrrrriously doubt that "Paul", the writer of Romans, would have in fact directed the Christian believers there to be subject to the Roman government in the same way they would be say, subject to the "head" of the Christian body, Christ and anyone who aspired to that "good work" of stepping up and serving in a capacity to teach, nurture and provide for the spiritual welfare of the ol' believers. Paul identifies the hierarchy of "power", exousia and places God at the top. God assigns and directs as He will and when God's authority is applied according to His will and standards we would do well to heed it. I see that as the message of Romans 13, and within a primary context of the body of Christ.

But that being said, you make an interesting point and that is that the "body" of citizens in this country are indeed the "ruling" body. In a way the chaotic march we make in this country decade after decade may give some insight into how people of all stripe and faith live. I think we do a pretty decent job a lot of the time but if this is any indication so far - we suck at the job. Points for trying but "we the people" seems to mean "me and what I want and I hope you don't get in my way". We definitely need some moral and ethical high ground to aspire to.

[Steve Burch]

While I have not mastered "subjection", or when/when not to question others, there are a couple of things I'm pretty clear on:

1) I was never taught blind allegiance in the Way Corps, even though at times I tried it out.

2) There is no freaking way that any government is "sacred"; one of the few (quickly disappearing things) that made the USA worth anything was the freedom to believe and worship, and an honest attempt was made by many in this country to follow Christianity. Romans 13 is not telling me to obey any government; I tolerate them and work within their confines (usually) so that I am not "entangled" and rendered useless for that which I was called.

It's just not that complicated. Read Acts -- the believers had leadership, apostles, prophets, some organization. The world is on a collision course with oblivion, and today's government leaders are, by and large, all part of the same cabal. Me put them on a pedestal?

[Susan Propst]

The Way used the "higher powers" to mean higher powers in the church in order to train people not to question leadership. Do some research on that section and you will see that the words DO have to do with civil government.

[Michael Prahm]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that when Noah got off the boat, all understood, and knew the same truth concerning the record in the stars of the coming Messiah. Noah dies two years before Abraham is born. the best candidate for who Melchisedec is Shem.(King of peace, King of righteousness). Then Nimrod is properly viewed as a rebel. The lines of Genesis 10 will bear this out, as others, other than those from his line helped in this escapade. Nimrod's little empire is then not the first listed, and only listed. Many families, many nations.

Romans 13 has nothing to do with civil government. only by the traditions of the shadings of translations of certain words, only by the additional religious definitions of these words, do we even have a problem with this section of scripture. What higher power than Christ in you in manifestation, the more than a conqueror walk of Romans 8. The demonstrated Gift ministries in action, or simply living in a world in relationship with He who made the heavens and earth.

Mr. Kashani, the man who taught me to teach English in the country of Iran, used to say, "people get the kind of government they deserve" He was a Burmese exile who had fled revolution and exile at least 10 different times. The Japs, the Chinese Nationals, the Chinese Communist, the Vietnamese Communist, and others, plus I am sure the little Jihaud society of Iran. I viewed these governments as oppressive. They are he said, but they are because people get the kind of government they deserve. Another guy I lived with that year said; "governments come and governments go, but the Word of God lives and abides forever". Gary matsuk

government is by definition, of how man deals with another man, and must by its very nature be practical, and not doctrinal. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. not the golden rule which is; "He who has the gold makes the rules"

Phil 3:20 For our conversation(politeuma) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless our wonderful country and our wonderful believers

Michael H. Prahm