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Please bear with me. I must add something to this discussion.
I wasn't saved by an accurate knowledge of the Word, or the knowledge of the truth. I couldn't have quoted single verse. I was saved by Jesus. I had nothing to do with it. When I was a boy I attended a Baptist Sunday school and heard a few Bible stories, including the one about Jesus dying on a cross and being raised from the dead on Easter. Years later, when I asked a twig coordinator how I could be saved, he read Romans 10:9 and 10 to me. Then asked, "Do you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?" I was really quite surprised when I looked into my heart to discover that I had a very certain knowledge and belief that God raised Jesus from the dead. I answered YES, confessed Jesus as Lord, and my life changed. God forgave my sins and gave me the gift of everlasting life through faith in Christ. He did it all and he gets the glory.
How does any of us believe with such certainty upon someone we never met or in a supernatural event (the resurrection) that we never witnessed or have any proof of? Simply by the grace and power of God. The resurrection of Christ is central to knowing his identity as the Messiah, the Son of God, our Lord and Savior. That we know this in our knower is itself a miracle. That's how Peter knew who Jesus was, by a revelation. See Mt. 16:16-18. This knowledge of Christ and the faith it gives is the foundation upon which the Lord is building his church. It is so secure that not even the gates of hell can prevail against it. Think of it. God took that little bit of Bible I heard as a boy and infused it with such life that by the time I was asked about Jesus later, it was all there in my heart, rock solid! There's nothing uncertain or ambiguous about it whatsoever.
Even with all his depth of study, Bullinger (thanks Steve B.) said "This knowledge of God is to be obtained, not by reasoning, but by revelation; not by intellectual attainment, but by God’s gift."
It's good to work to know our Bible's well and understand all that it says, but thankfully our salvation and eternal security isn't based on such extensive knowledge (given our disagreements, thank God!). Truly, we are "kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5)." There's rest in him: his accomplishments, his grace, and his power. This is that "simplicity in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3)" Paul was afraid we'd be subtly removed from.
As far as our knowledge of the Bible and our ability "to determine truth from error," it's all good as long as it glorifies God and supports the preaching and teaching of the Gospel (the person of Christ and his death, burial, and resurrection). When we get too far lost in straining at details we inevitably end up "doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings (1 Tim. 6:4) ..." A bit of ambiguity is honest concerning the deep things of God. Honestly, we're finite beings who were lost in sin and by God's mercy and grace, got saved by no work of our own. I don't know everything, but I don't have to. My God knows it all and he has me (and us all) firmly in his grip.
John, I say good for you. I think you have some valid points. As I see it, as long as a minister or believer is not causing harm to a fellow brother or sister then who am I to condemn their belief? Not me.
In the past, long after you were gone, there was indeed hurt and pain caused by those who practiced legalism and did not even know it. As they "spititually" hit us over the head with their bibles they truly believed in their terribly wrong and legalistic doctrine. Meanwhile all we got out of it was a migrane headache. I am not implying you are doing this. I am talking about a totally different context and environment. You wouldn't have believed it!
Therefore it takes time for some people to sort things out after a "spiritual car crash". For some I honestly believe it can take decades. Some may never sort it all out and may have permanent injury. I think we still need to remain supportive of one another in spite of it.
Ambiguous? Maybe.
Doubt? Yes at times.
Adrift,,,,,yeah...sometimes.
Alone and up the creek without a paddle. No!!....Never again......because we have each other to cling to and talk to and reach out to. How cool is that? When I feel need for rescue in some manner in my life I have awesome people I can talk to. IT HASN"T ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY. Some were cast out and abruptly lost all contact with loved ones. That must have sucked.
May we never turn our backs on each other again regardless of our current status of belief. We have seen too much of that in the past. That kind of behavior is far more hurtful IMO than not having a firm foundation on ones belief system.
Brother Steve, once again you are completely ignoring what the Bible says. Countless verses exhort us to KNOW God and to KNOW the truth. Jesus is our supreme example, and never did he say anything like what you, and others on this blog, are saying. In fact, he said just the opposite (John 8:31,32).
I fear that too many dear brethren who once heard great biblical truth have drifted from it into the realm of ambiguity. Furthermore, they are trying to justify that ambiguity as humble while saying that those who proclaim to know truth are arrogant. Let us remember that the Devil's first recorded words were, "Did God say...?" He at once assaulted the Word of God, and he has never relented. Without it, life is meaningless, because no one can be sure that the opinion he holds is right.
If we have no standard by which to determine truth from error, we are adrift in the proverbial sea of speculation, or up a certain creek without a paddle. I for one refuse to live that way. I'll do my best to learn and live by the standard Jesus held fast and exemplified: IT IS WRITTEN.
Luv!
John
I read your every word you wrote about youself, I read what others had to say to you and I gotta admit some people "flat out" love your butt...it also appears as I've seen on this blog that you have, for a lack of a better phrase "met your match"....Hey in a good way!.....No really!...I'm really enjoying this! ...You know why?.....
cause we will either become nastier and nastier and "take our ball and go home" or we will honestly shelve this in our minds and act civil to one another.
As I do and I know alot of folks also do here, we look forward to opening up this site, seein' your face( with that world famous smirk ) and salavate on either what to say or what not to say. You my friend have brought to this site alot. Do we agree with you deep down inside?...perhaps...perhaps not. But thanks!...Hey! Don't forget I will ever be grateful to you for exposing my mind to the "gig line"...but seriously.... you did show us much more and thanks!
I just read your post, Steve, in which you said that I "seem to have shown ZERO capacity for reflection and intellectual honesty about my writings and teachings," and accuse me of arrogance like that of David when he was blinded by his lust and sin. Then I got to your comment, Dan, comparing me to the evil and hypocritical Pharisees whom Jesus addressed in Matthew 23, and your statement that I don't know the Bible very well.
Steve, did you not read what I wrote to Steve K. and to Dan? I certainly did consider what they said, and found it wanting compared to what the Word says. The Trinity is an insane proposition with no biblical basis, is it not? I explained briefly where the pacifist position is off track, and, as with other subjects, pointed you to a more thorough exposition about them, which of course you may not care to read.
I hope you recall my asking readers to dialogue with me in the Word if they took issue with anything I said. That might require some time, but is it arrogance to say, "The Bible says thus-and-so..." if in fact that position is biblically sustainable? My posts were peppered with Scripture, and none of it yanked out of context. I continually tried to show you why I believe what I believe--from the Word. Of course you may choose to look at the Word differently--no problem, but rather than take potshots at me personally, why not engage me with biblical arguments?
Anyway, thanks for caring enough to get involved. I believe that you too are searching for truth and want to live accordingly. Dan, I guess I am blogally challenged, for I had no idea I could delete your posts, but your commendation is not unwarranted, for I wouldn't anyway.
In Christ's love,
John
not by intellectual attainment, but by God’s gift."
Now that is just cool. Steve, will you put together a class on that or write a thick book about it?
Sometimes I think Bullinger was God in disguise. Then someone will write "Bullinger is Not God"
from "The Knowledge of God"
by Dr. E.W. Bullinger
“It is quite one of the “signs of the times” that the Godhead is becoming a
subject of discussion; and the doctrines connected with the Trinity and the
Virgin birth, are considered as open questions, not affecting the standing or
faith of a Christian. But there is another question which lies beneath this.
The real question is: How many of us really know the God whom we
worship? Is it not the case with very many that it is “ the unknown God?”
The true knowledge of God lies at the foundation of the revelation of the
Mystery. Hence it is the great keynote of the Epistle to the Ephesians; and is
the link which unites the three Prison-Epistles (Ephesians, Philippians, and
Colossians), and binds them to the Epistles to the Thessalonians where, in
that typical Church (1 Thessalonians 1:7, RV), we see the wonderful effect
produced by the true knowledge of God in heart and life.
In the Epistles to the Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians it is the knowledge
of man which is made known; but in the Prison-Epistles it is the knowledge
of God which is revealed. In the former three it is man, and how he is
justified. In the latter three it is God, and how He is revealed.
Hence, one of the blessings enumerated in Ephesians is that God “hath
abounded towards us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known unto
us the mystery ( or the secret) of His will”; which means His secret purpose
(vv. 8, 9): and the measure of this blessing is declared to “according to His
good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself” (vv. 9, 10).
This knowledge of God is to be obtained, not by reasoning, but by revelation;
not by intellectual attainment, but by God’s gift.