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Comments
I'm hopeful, as I've said elsewhere, that the Obama presidency will have many positive outcomes, but I'm worried about the trillions of dollars already committed to incredibly undefined programs (700 billion plus) and now they're talking about ANOTHER
billionTRILLION-dollar "economic stimulus package."Obama has a lot on the ball, and as both candidates said, we have an amazing country with an amazing foundation. We will weather this storm by the grace of God and good old fashioned hard work, freedom of speech and religion and the press, etc. I'm quite sure Obama will be able to do positive things that would have been difficult for my candidate to have gotten done.
He will be my President, and he's a good man.... just as GWB is right now (quite a class act in regard to the transfer of power in contrast to the Clinton folks) I had no illusions that McCain was perfect, and I'm quite sure Obama will make some grave mistakes, but I pray he doesn't.
I heartily agree with your citation from the teaching of Jesus. I too was shocked by John's "bullet" statement.
The church fathers never supplied the sperm that made me so I don't give much weight to what they have to say. and the Whitfield-Wesley debate has never distracted me. I have to bend and twist the Word to make the triune god fit. then I have to go so far as to say it's inferred. In my profession whenever something is inferred someone gets seriously hurt. Looks like the credibility of the Word and the God who authored it is starting to get hurt here.
This morning i taught on "Why Four Gospels" the trinity was never "inferred or even mentioned in any of the passages read (or what was spoken in between). If there are 4 gospels How come we supposedly have a three part god? Is he incomplete?
Personally I think the most scholastic reasoning for the existence of the Trinity is pure rubbish. Perhaps it might serve everyone well to go back and reread this entire blog and be sure to read what you have written? does it line up with God's Word?
And how about them Lions..
but don't you mean Bush's assault on freedom (the patriot act, etc.) and prosperity (everyone's 401k!)? ;p
It's simple. The Bible says "But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (Hebrews 1:8)." A JCING teacher would of necessity say of this, "But that's not what it means ..." I don't want to do that. I'd rather say there's more to Jesus than his mere humanity. The Bible says of the women who ran from the tomb Easter morning that when they saw Jesus "they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him (Mt. 28:9)." A JCING teacher would say, "But that's not what it means ..." I don't want to do that. I don't see a need to. I don't see what is gained.
A paradox is something that appears contradictory, but in fact isn't. The Bible is full of them. For instance God told Adam that he would surely die in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Did he? Yes and no. He died spiritually, but went on to live 930 years in the flesh. It's not an "either he died or he didn't" proposition. It's a paradox, one with a both/and resolution: a combination of natural and spiritual realities. Jesus hit Nicodemus with a paradox when He said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3)." Thinking only of natural things, Nic didn't get it at first. Jesus went on to resolve the issue for him by adding the spiritual dimension: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (Jn. 3:6)." Again, a paradox with a both/and resolution: both natural and spiritual. Jesus once said to his disciples "I have meat to eat that ye know not of (Jn. 4:32)." The disciples were disturbed by this wondering who had brought Him something to eat. But again, Jesus wasn't referring to something natural, but spiritual: He was being spiritually strengthened because of His passion for the revival that was about to break out in Samaria. The Bible continually provokes us beyond the natural understanding of the mind to receive God's spiritual understanding in our hearts. We can enjoy such spiritual things and benefit from them, but we can not explain them or how they work.
With such paradoxes, there is the natural which is what it is (or isn't), but then there's the addition of the spiritual understanding which resolves the matter. It's like in the classic Whitfield-Wesley debate which has been such a distraction in recent history. Is salvation the sovereign work of God or by man's freewill choice to receive Christ and obey God? You can make it an issue that divides men by demanding it's either this way or the other, but again, it's paradoxical. Somehow it's both the predetermined work of our sovereign God and the will of man to accept and receive God's grace.
The godhead issue is just this kind of a thing. It's a multidimensional problem, one that can not really be parsed into finite definitions. There's nothing to be gained by demanding this be an either/or thing. To me (and the vast majority of Christians) it's much bigger than that--bigger than we can presently know.
at least you noted above that the trinitarian position is an inferred and not purely scriptural position ....just as you claim that the non-trinitarian position (or as John L. describes it in part with "Jesus Christ is not God") is inferred.
You proceed to accuse John L. to "bend, twist and explain away numerous w-o-r-d-s in the written Word" ... but somehow you do not seem to notice that the Trinity position bends, twists and explains away not just some words in the written Word but in fact one of the basic fundamental concepts of truth, namely that only ONE "Being /Person" is "true God" (cp. Jesus' very own words!) by claiming that there are THREE Beings/Persons who are "somehow mysteriously" all true God (for which there is not one statement in Scripture). What is influencing you to act like that?
John L. mentioned that "Muslims know that God the Father, God the Son, and God the H.S. are three gods, no matter how much Christians try to say they are one." .... You claim that such is "a misrepresentation" of Trinitarian Christianiy .... well, indeed, Trinitarian Christianity makes the claim that these Three (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) are one God .... so who is twisting words and their meaning here? If you have three who each are "God ...", then by plain logic and application of simple linguistic considerations, you have "three Gods", no matter how much one wants to jump up, scream and yell, that they are only ONE God ...IF that were true, then the claim that they each individually are also "God". How is it that you do not notice this kind of bending, twisting and explaining away of words and logic that is done by Trinitarian Christians??
Perhaps it is because you believe "Jesus was a paradox, not God and God at the same time" ?? Why not permit others the liberty to believe that Jesus was not a paradox? Why do you want to accuse those who hold to the plain truth of "the man Christ Jesus" -- which are words that are written in the Word !! -- of being "divisive" while not noticing that it may well be those who hold to non-biblical, non-logical, paradoxical ideas who should take a closer look at themselves whether or not they perhaps are the ones who are "divisive"??
As I have mentioned before, I have been thrown out by trinitarian Christians (that is, they divided me out from themselves in rather clear and drastic measures) while I have not been thrown out by non-trinitarian Christians .... I have not made big deals nor demonized trinitarians ....even participated in activities organized by trinitarian churches (and actively tried to do so over the years), but some head elders, priests, etc. of a number of trinitarian churches made very quickly a big deal of me because I believe that "Jesus is not God".
Cheers,
Wolfgang
Again bro, you keep knocking down the Trinitarian position, but so what? It's an inferred position, not a purely scriptural one. Then, to make you look even more superior (apparently) you call it polytheistic (a misrepresentation) and knock it down again. Just because you can trash the Trinity does not prove that your own inferred position is any better. Your "Jesus Christ is Not God" teaching is not an "It Is Written" position. In fact, to make your case you have bend and twist and explain away numerous w-o-r-d-s in the written Word to wire it all together. You're sure you're right in doing so. I'm not so sure.
Does this extra knowledge make you a better Christian? A better servant of Christ? Do you walk in a greater anointing? Are you more saved? More Spirit-filled? Closer to God? Do you really have special knowledge of God and what He can and can not do?
I believe that Jesus was a paradox, not God and God at the same time and I don't know where to draw the lines to explain where God ended and the man Jesus began. And my both/and position is more "It is Written" than yours because I don't have to bend a single Scripture to suit my purpose. I simply have to bow to a God greater than I can understand and humbly admit that I don't know (and can't know) it all. The Bible is filled with many such mysteries and paradoxes. I believe it, obey it, I'm held by it, but it's full of many things I don't (yet) understand (fully) and God is not holding a gun (or hell) to my head demanding I come up with answers to everything. As I said in an earlier post, my love for God and fear of His judgment has brought me to what seems to be a safer, more inclusive, historic, and respectful position. It's very possible that you, John, and Mark are smarter than I am and really can grasp all this and hold it together. Honestly, I've tried and can not. I'm not alone in this either. Many ex-Way folk who used to demonize trinitarians as evil are now willing to embrace the obvious element of mystery in the godhead and enjoy fellowship with the rest of Christianity. It is nowhere nearly as big a deal as Wierwille made it out to be.
I have read your book and I find that I agree with it. There was no place I felt that I could break it.
This is not my absolute area of expertise, I don't spend my days studying this subject of JCING but i do know enough to be very dangerous. Thanks for blogging
At the risk of whatever, I must encourage us not to drift from the standard of IT IS WRITTEN. Either The Book is what it claims to be--the God-breathed revelation of the Creator that does contain all things that pertain to life and godliness--or it is not. If it is not, life is a crapshoot. If it is, then it is not up to us to pontificate about how things in it are not clearly spelled out. Can not the Creator communicate in such a way that we can both understand and apply His words? I say yes, because that is what He says in the Word.
Who are we to say that it really makes no difference whether or not one believes Jesus is God, especially when both God and Jesus say it is the world's biggest deal, as in "Who do you say that I am?" If we adhere at all to the inherent linguistic principles God set in His Word, and thus take words like "son" at face value, the fallacious idea of a Trinity, with Jesus being "God the Son," evaporates under the light of logic and common sense, as well it should. So do non-sensical conjectures like God being in control, dead people being alive, et al. Believing those, and other, error requires one to ignore or abandon the laws of language that God invented. Why does truth matter? Because only a knowledge of the truth makes us free and, conversely, believing error puts us in some degree of bondage, whether we know it or not.
Hey, I'm all for loving one another--that is the point of The Book, to be like The Man, but it is truth that defines love, and truth from God comes in w-o-r-d-s, which He originally arranged so as to make known to us His heart, will, and purposes.
Please do not throw out a phrase like "knowledge puffs up" without addressing it in its immediate context, and that of the whole Word. Proverbs 2, et al, tells us to get as much knowledge of God as we possibly can, so that cannot be a bad thing. Here is a link to a brief article on that very verse--1 Cor. 8:1, and I urge you to read it. http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=arti...
The truth that TWI taught WAS, and in that sense, The Way WAS the only place we could have heard that truth in that package. Of course people came away with a wide variety of perspectives and opinions about their particular experience, but none of those, good or bad, negate the truth of the Word that TWI taught us.
George, I appreciate your thoughts about helping our country (which I think is in pitiful shape and going to get much worse under Obama's assault on freedom and prosperity), and I am all for believers following the Lord's leading them into politics, etc. As for the Islam issue, it is noteworthy that the Church, with its Trinitarian and thus polytheistic gospel, has a pitiful record of reaching Muslims. I attended a debate b/t a Christian and a Muslim, mostly about the Trinity, and afterward went to the Muslim, who was at least open to dialogue with me when I told him that there are some Christians who do not believe this pagan fable. Muslims know that God the Father, God the Son, and God the H.S. are three gods, no matter how much Christians try to say they are one. IMO, there are only two things that will stop a true Muslim from trying to kill or enslave everyone who refuses Islam. One is a bullet, and the other is the truth of God's Word that would change his heart.
Thanks for considering my thoughts. As per Gene Hackman in "Hoosiers" (which I know each of you owns), "I love you guys."
John
I am thinking of moving to So Ill just so I can vote for you.
Now what is part two of what John (Lynn I think was the one who started this blog) had to say?
That made me laugh outloud....you have a way with words. Keep writing please.