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Lonell - I just want to say before I start (although I will try and keep it short) that salvation is by grace, not works, there is no work that we can do that will make us acceptable, Christ has made the sacrifice and for a person to get saved is the most important thing, discussing and debating the scriptures is something God has allowed us to do graciously. Now, I know that had nothing to do with your post or mine, but I just wanted to start off on something that we agree on. lol
Bob, just picking up on some of your points
"I can understand your proposal. But I must say just because I never raised anyone from the dead yet (and that's the operative word here - 'yet'.) but doesn't mean at all I can't or that I will never have the privilege."
Don’t want to be the bearer of bad news, don’t get too disappointed, but you never will, I’m not saying that to be a smart ass, but because I truly believe that that is what the scriptures teach us. Never the mind the greater works how about healing the common cold.
I know there are people that have never seen some of these things happen and I certainly have been in the place of 'wonder' myself at times. But on the other side of the coin, I have SEEN (yep - SEEN ... been there and done that kind of 'seen' too) things that would indeed qualify as a 'real live genuine healings' .... (and then some ..!)
Aaawh, I know it sounds mean Bob and you’ve got such a great smile, but I just don’t believe it, I’ve been around the hype for years, I sat through the advanced class more times than I can remember, and all the people I seen go through that class and the Way Corps still took an aspirin for a headache. No healing and no revelation, it’s not anyone’s fault, it’s just not available for us today. I really want to say “it died with the apostles”, just for the fun of it, but the truth is, it stopped with the setting aside of Israel as the stewards at Acts 28.
May I suggest a very close looked at all the miracles that Jesus did, as well as considering his comment about "the works that I do shall ye do also ..." (?)
I have looked very closely and you know what they are all for the benefit of Israel, they have a purpose and once the chosen channel were put aside in Acts 28:28 there was no more need to authenticate the Messiah by signs miracles and wonders, because they had shut their ears and closed their eyes and hardened their heart. After that no more miracles in the post Acts epistles. Paul left Trophimus at Miletus sick, 2 Tim 4:20 (no one left sick in Malta before Acts 28:28). Timothy gets advice for his stomach, no healing handkerchief. Phil 4:27 Epaphroditus was sick near unto death, he recovered, no miracle. It doesn’t mean you can’t pray but there’s no guarantee of healing.
May I also suggest a close look at the book of Acts, which as I still not only see the 'Acts of the Apostles' ... but also the 'Acts of the Saints.'
The more I look at Acts I see it as the Acts of the Apostles in their witness to Israel, not one gentile Christian performing a miracle anywhere in the book of Acts, anywhere in the Bible for that matter, only Jews. You see Bob, we were taught wrong about what was going on in the Acts, not intentionally, it was just a lack of knowledge; once some of the basic framework gets put in place things make more sense. Dr. Wierwill taught one wonderful principle (and others, but one in particular) which is “get to whom addressed correct” but for some inexplicable reason he never actually applied it in most of his work. We ransacked the OT stealing the good stuff from Israel without a thought and left them the curses. The promises of the Lord in His earthly ministry were NOT FOR US, they were for Israel Rom 15:8. I suggest you re-read the books of Acts, straight through in one sitting and look at the Jewish nature of the book and by the end Paul is bound for the hope of Israel, not the church and the apostles are still keeping the law and ask yourself Why? Because the book of Acts is primarily concerned with witnessing to Jews, gentiles were only there to provoke Israel to emulation in the hope that they would see what God was doing and repent and the kingdom would be set up. There was no equality between Jews and gentiles in Acts and the epistles that written during the Acts period reflect the fact that there were two classes of people in the church and one was superior to the other. In the Acts period there were epistles written specifically to Jewish Christians (Heb. James, 1,2,3 John, Jude, 1,2 Peter, Revelation) and are concerned with bringing in the kingdom promised in the OT.
There were epistles written to churches made up of Jews and Gentiles, but the Jew is superior because it’s exactly the same as the OT with the kingdom imminent (Rom, 1,2 Cor, Gal, 1,2 Thess.) re-read these epistles with this framework and it makes so much more sense. Or do you really want to go back to the Acts church? Because as well as the blessings that come with being grafted into Israel you’ve got to take the judgements. Annanis and Saphira, they lied, they died, Herod elevated himself above God, he died, horribly, Elymas the sorcerer, a Jew trying to obstruct a gentile from believing, blinded, but for a season only, a picture of Israel now.
But, I really do appreciate you post, there's something very warm about it :-)
Lonnell:
I mean real miracles, I know what you mean, but you know what I mean also, because you've been there. Please consider this, John the Baptist was having a bad day. I won't pretend I knew what was going on in his mind, I can't imagine that Herods dungeon was good for his self-esteem, but it seems in Luke 7:20 he wondered what was happening. John had heralded the cry, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" he baptised the king, but now as he languished in a kings prison instead of the Kings kingdom, he wondered, and sent his disciples to see if Jesus really was the one. Christs answer was not to tell him that the sun came up this morning, or to look in the mirror. It was to let John know that "that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached" Luke(7:22). John would immediately recognize Isaiah 35:4 -7 and Isaiah 61 and many other OT scriptures that authenticate the Messiah of Israel by signs. Johns gospel has 8 signs and his gospel concludes with " But these [signs] are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. " John 20:31
Miraculous signs meant something to Israel, I have said it before but it is worth saying again, miracles confuse gentiles and turn them to idolatry as is evident in the book of Acts. On the two occasions where the gentiles saw miracles (Acts 14 Iconioum, Acts 28 Malta) they thought the doers were gods and wanted to offer sacrifice. Not unlike what we see today in the mayhem of Christian healing ministries. Hebrews, written to Hebrews i.e Jews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? … signs for Jews not for us. This is why it is important to understand what was going on at Pentecost and all through the book of Acts. IT was to and for and about Israel, Israel, Israel.
But, you are right Lonnell about being concerned about the words written TO US… Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus, Philemon, because these post Acts epistles are the instruction to the church where Israel is no different and gentiles are not inferior, the church of the one body.
Since you like poetry (and you are really very good at it) you might like this.
http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/WHAT%20HAPPENED%20THEN.PDF
God Bless
Cheers
Last night after having posted my response to your comments regarding Pentecost and the Birthday of the Church, I “just happened” to go to the Home page of the Way Corps site where noticed your blog “No Signs, No Miracles, No Wonders, No Worries.” I was intrigued by the title which lured me to read on. I finished reading your comments, and I thought I would respond. In a similar manner you happened upon my blog which, likewise, generated an exchange of varying views. It seems as though once again we disagree with regard to the subject of miracles, signs and wonders.
A couple of days ago, I came across a poem I had written “It’s My Time for A Miracle” which I shall offer in closing. Recently I recalled a conversation I had a few years ago with fellow believer to whom I said, “Someday I want to witness a real miracle, an undeniable supernatural intervention of God.” Years passed and one day out of the blue when I stepped out of the shower and looked into the mirror, God brought that conversation to mind and gently asked, “Do you really want to see a miracle? Then look in the mirror. You’re looking at one.” Now that I think about it, my life has been an ongoing series of miracles. Last week I was keenly aware a miracle with regard to God’s healing of my body when I went for my semi-annual checkup and received a glowing report of I being in excellent physical health with no trace of metastasis after being diagnosed with prostate cancer 10 years ago.
Despite the truth that words of Jesus Christ in Mark 16 were not addressed to present-day believers, there is no reason why believers today could not demonstrate such feats of power. In fact, should not believers walking in the fullness of Christ accomplish even greater works than Jesus Christ accomplished on earth? I just happened to think that believers after the day of Pentecost have the power within them to not only raise someone from the dead but to witness an individual who is “dead in trespasses and sins without God and without hope,” raised to life eternal. Lazurus and Jairus’ daughter were raised from the dead but they died again, but those whom we lead to Christ are raised from death to eternal life.
In all honesty, I am more concerned about those words that are written to me as a member of the Body of Christ, specifically those prayers which are expression of God’s desire for us in Ephesians 1:17ff and Ephesians 3:16-21 as well as Colossians 1:9-14. Endeavoring to make Ephesians 3:20 a daily reality would be an amazing accomplishment for any and all of us. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that “the age of miracles has not passed.” Unquestionably I disagree (albeit respectfully) that signs, wonders, and miracles still abound, “no worries.”
Last week I commented in response to a statement from Fred Stickman, the Christian figure on Facebook, “Do you believe that miracles happen every day?” I remark that “I’m a living witness that they do?’ I also shared two songs that came to mind as I thought about miracles: “It Took a Miracle” and “Expect Miracles” (a children’s ministry song), both of which you may recall from days gone by. Here is a recording of the first by Don Holcomb, but I couldn’t locate a copy of the latter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXOu1gp-mOw&feature=related
Yes, I’m still expecting miracles every day. As I close, here is my “miracle” poem which I trust you will also appreciate. Thanks for the stimulating piece.
It’s My Time for a Miracle
“I’m show nuff a winner, ain’t no way I can lose”
Lonnell E. Johnson
“It’s your time for a miracle.”
Marvin Sapp
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ,
and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
2 Corinthians 2:14
With this victorious overcoming Spirit in me,
We will go toe to toe, and you will know you’re in a fight.
I am renewed in strength, endued with power and might.
This is not a good time to be my enemy.
I look full-face into my future and find it divine:
Old things are passed away; behold, all things are new.
God says I always win; His promises are true.
I won’t try to direct my steps but trust God’s design
And purpose for me, having come this far somehow.
I walk by faith, despite any current circumstance.
God spoke His Word, and I have the full assurance
It’s my time for a miracle, and my time is now.
The Holy Ghost teaches my true identity:
I am destined always to walk forth in victory.
Lonnell E. Johnson
August 31, 2009
Blessings!
Bob
And when I saw that, I mean not only has God bless you with all spiritual blessings as it states in Ephesians, but also to invoke God's blessings in a practical way. The blessing of God are both from a legal point of view - what was accomplished in Christ for us - but also if they are made 'practical.'
I can understand your proposal. But I must say just because I never raised anyone from the dead yet (and that's the operative word here - 'yet'.) but doesn't mean at all I can't or that I will never have the privilege.
I know there are people that have never seen some of these things happen and I certainly have been in the place of 'wonder' myself at times. But on the other side of the coin, I have SEEN (yep - SEEN ... been there and done that kind of 'seen' too) things that would indeed qualify as a 'real live genuine healings' .... (and then some ..!)
May I suggest a very close looked at all the miracles that Jesus did, as well as considering his comment about "the works that I do shall ye do also ..." (?)
May I also suggest a close look at the book of Acts, which as I still not only see the 'Acts of the Apostles' ... but also the 'Acts of the Saints.'
In no way do I suggest there is any 'God loves me more than you', or that I'm any more or less capable than any other person that has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. But I certainly do, and will always believe that we have been born again by the grace of God (the legal side of redemption) - and that there is 'more grace' to be had every day of our lives (the practical side of redemption) as noted in James 4:6.
There seems to have been a very broad misunderstanding of many many passages of scripture that were speaking specifically about 'legal blessings' and those verses or even passages that were indeed meant to be considered as 'practical'. And by practical I mean something you can 'appropriate' if you are led by the spirit of God to do so.
I honestly do not believe it's a question of ability concerning a Christian. I do believe it is simply a mater of a lack of understanding of how to be led by the Spirit. And for most of us, that's taken a lot of growing up and understanding we needed to 'yield to God' first - before we got to 'I can do all things through Christ.' ('Yield to God' is mentioned in Romans 6:13. where as 'I can do all things through Christ' is of course mentioned in Philippians 4:13)
Honest to God (literally) ... just because you have never seen a microwave doesn't mean - once your microwave it turned on (activated) - it doesn't work.
Just because you've never seen electricity doesn't mean it ain't there. Did you turn on the light switch? If not give that a try. If the bulb is burnt out, change it. And for crying out loud - if those don't work make sure you pay your electric bill! (Which is totally applicable with this idea.)
If your radio isn't playing music ... turn the radio on! .... get fresh batteries if you need them, tune in to the station, crank up the volume - and if the dang thing is broke ... take it to the repair main ! (The best repair fella I know is still seated at the right hand of God - and is still head of the church ... so he should be hard to find!)
Again, God bless you - really !
Bob